It isn’t that Christians don’t “take it seriously” … but instead that humans typically do not. For to take it seriously requires investment, in the way of caring … caring at probable cost … & those are expenses that self is unwilling to pay unless impacted by God. It is human nature to be about self – obtain for self — & not consider the needs of others.

Those that are capable, competent, & diligent get more responsibility pushed their way by others … because others less so, understand it is the nature of these hard-drivers to accept responsibility & take initiative to ensure completion of what needs completing.

Politicians are not politicians but instead people & must be seen as such … & as we keep touching on here — people are about themselves. Politicians have never ever listened to the people … but have only (w/ few exceptions) responded to ‘pressure’. As the citizen-people are able to apply pressure … political-people respond.

Christians, as a collective have rarely, if ever been a “voice to the world”. Some, yes … most hardly ever — & when they were … were a voice that should often shut-up. As they have ranted about religious crap to the extent that they color Christianity in many bad shades.

People sit back & do nothing … because there exists no real leadership to lead them in advancing in any real direction or effort. Because people, as a collective do not inherently move to action unless lead to do so by some motivating force. Absent of genuine leadership … they will feel directionless. That is why God … being a God of administration … has established the office of ‘leader’ among all peoples, in all times.

So many of your remaining questions are (I believe) answered by this question. Why do we have no real leadership among Christians? Why are Christian leaders / pastors / preachers so utterly interested today, in facilitating a shallow / superficial Body-of-Christ? Why are they more interested in crafting cool cliché sound bytes, as opposed to leading God’s people in going deeper in their respective relationships w/ God Almighty?

Why do they continue to start & grow church-after-church of the same shallow atmosphere-of-a-Starbucks / wanna-be-bookstore / got-to-have-an-afghan-rug-on-the-stage-&-cool-lighting drivel? Why do these fellowships continue to purport that more substantial interaction & deeper times of fellowship are intended to occur in the smaller groups – contact groups, home groups, small groups, blah-groups? … when these times will simply, be an extension of the shallow Sunday mornings but will include a nifty fill-in-the-blank workbook whereby participants can share (note: NOT discuss or explore to depth) what they got for question # 7, while thanking whomever brought the pecan brownies?

I’m sure you’re a sincere man, Levi. And you’re my brother-in-Christ. God’s people are as shallow as a wading pool, dude — & it is because Christian leadership fosters it. I am responsible for any spiritual shallowness in my life. Further am responsible for any spiritual shallowness in my son’s life. Not completely … but absolutely in part — & as priest of my home … God will address me first about this issue. Dude … if you’re gonna stand in the position of a leader among God’s people … then bleed & lead. Stop wondering why God’s people are goofy & expect more from them by insisting more of them by leading them deeper, in their respective & collective relationships w/ the Very Living God. Seek to inspire other Christian leaders to shut-up & lead. Christians are literally aching for genuine leadership … not cool guys w/ witty remarks & spiffy facial hair! Depth & growth in fellowship instead of cool YouTube presentations & funny videos. The Church has gone from shallow religious traditionalism … to shallow cultural-coolism. Both suck! We need less retreats & more advances!

Hope I didn’t bum you out or p_ you off. God bless. – tim

I preached from 1 Timothy 2:8-15 not so long ago. Here’s a link to the audio if anyone’s interested: http://www.olivetcc.com/home.aspx?igid=29141&iid=64672

Sorry about the quality and the speed. I talked really fast and it still took me almost 50 minutes., but I covered most of the disputed issues.

I used to straddle the fence on this one (many years ago), but the more I study and examine the objections to the traditional interpretation the stronger I become in the complimentarian view (the biblical view).

I’ve always heard and understood these passages as being applicable “in the assembly.” The 1 Corinthians passage is certainly that, but it looks like they were disrespecting their husbands while they (the ladies) were prophesying (look at 14:35-36). 10-15 years later, Paul writes 1 Timothy, and says that ladies are to “receive instruction with entire submissiveness.” Yes, we are to submit to our leaders and to one another, but in other passages (Ephesians and 1 Peter), Paul talks about women submitting to their husbands. Maybe… just maybe… could Paul be speaking about family roles just as much (or more so) than church roles? Maybe it’s just as much a message for guys to man up and be the spiritual leaders of their families as it is for ladies to respect their husbands? In other words, the traditional view is still correct, but it doesn’t start with men’s/women’s roles in the church, but in the family, which bleeds over into the church.

I haven’t totally bought into the above, but it’s worth thinking about.